Speaker 1 0:04

I had faith. I just had faith in a fear-based system. It wasn't part of the path. My path was I went to the penitentiary when I was 22 years old. The last place I wanted to hang out was sober was in a monastery with a group of guys that were in AA. I mean, I thought this was so real , the genius of 12 step spirituality isn't that it teaches you to surrender, but that it exhaust you in the effort to surrender. So you last surrender, surrendering and find yourself surrender. I mean that you can say that's how it works. And I mean, I have 11 years of knowing this thing's taken me to places I could have never gotten to. So I'm going to trust that no reason not to

Speaker 2 0:48

Welcome to the daily reflection podcast, your hosts, Michael L and Lee Ann . On this show, we try to provide inspiration through interviews with members of the recovery community. We are not aligned with any 12 step or recovery programs, but you may hear them mentioned throughout the course of an interview. Today's February 22nd, very special guest today. Kurt Z Redondo beach, California. Kurt's been involved in the recovery community for over 30 years. We're delighted to have him on the show today. I hope you enjoy this episode. Good morning, Lee, how are you? Good morning.

Speaker 3 1:20

I am doing well. How are you this morning, Mike?

Speaker 2 1:22

I'll never better. It's a great day. What's going on today.

Speaker 3 1:25

So today is February 22nd and I am , uh , very excited to have Kurt Z with us today from Southern California, right? Curt and Curt. CURT's going to be sharing with us on the daily reflection, guidance

Speaker 2 1:42

Outstanding. Well, Kurt, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on the show.

Speaker 1 1:45

Thanks for having me. Thanks for inviting me, Lee . Thanks for coming.

Speaker 2 1:50

So we start the show in the same way. Every day, we ask the guest to read the daily reflection for the day. Kurt, would you get us started?

Speaker 1 1:56

I will February 22nd and guidance. This means a belief in a creator who is all powerful justice and love a God who intends for me, a purpose, a meaning, and a destiny to grow. However haltingly toward his own likeness and image as bill sees it , page 51. As I began to understand my own powerlessness and my dependence on God, as I understand it , I began to see that there is a life which if I could have it, I wouldn't have chosen for myself from the very beginning, just though the continuing work of the steps and the life and the fellowship that I have learned to see that there truly is a better way in which I am being guided. As I come to know more about God, I am able to trust his ways and his plans for the development of his character, me quickly or not so quickly, I grow towards his own image and likeness. It is a powerful reading. Tell me what you're thinking after you, after you read that, what does it mean to you? Well, I'll tell you what I went over this and , uh , you know, where it says as bill sees it. If I can let me read page 51, the coming of faith, the coming of faith. In my own case, the foundation stone of freedom from fear is that a faith, a faith that despite all worldly appearances to the contrary, causes me to believe that I live in a universe. That makes sense to me. This means a belief in a creator who is all powerful justice. I just read this and love God who intends for me, purpose, meaning and the destiny to grow. However little haltingly toward his own likeness and image before coming of faith. I had lived as an alien in a cosmos that too often seen both hostile and cruel in it. There could be no inner security for me. When I was driven to my knees by alcohol, I was made, ready to ask for the gift of faith and all was changed. Never again, my pains and problems, not withstanding what I experienced my former desolation. I saw the universe to be lighted by God's love. I was no longer. Nope . I was alone no more. So I guess what I'm thinking about is I'm thinking about a passage in a book by Richard Rohr. Uh, it's a 12 step book called a breathing under water . And there's a , there's a little before the beginning of the book. There's a passage in there by Leo. I mean, Jose de gusset , I think is his name. He was an 18th century poet. And so the only genuine ideas are the ideas of the shipwreck. All the rest is rhetoric, posturing and farce. So let me jump onto that. So when they talk about faith in here, let me describe what my idea of faces. Faith is a modality of perception that gives reality to this great mystery. It's not belief it's beyond belief and it's beyond belief based on direct experience with grace or forgiveness, or we call the other, or we call God it's based on a direct experience with that. And the being surrendered allowed an access to that paradigm. The parting of that veil . Now, you know, in the big book, it's talked about many different ways. Like I think one of the cool ways that bill talks about it , he said the significance of Winchester, cathedral burst upon me. So it was like all of a sudden, there's this ability to comprehend things I couldn't comprehend because before this surrendered experience, everything was being processed through a mind bound, intellectual, rational perspective. So what I'm talking about here is I'm not really talking about I'm pointing towards it. Let's go back to the faith part where it talks about this. Unbeknownst to me, I had faith. I just had faith in a fear-based system. I had faith in the gut. It says in the big book, the God of reason. So I had faith in my thinking mind. That was my , that was my reality. The best way to think about this is my reality consisted of a circle, small circle about the size of a baseball. And there was a bigger reality about the size of a basketball that I didn't have access to the boundary of my reality encompass me in this. We could call it the of self and it didn't matter how much or how many spiritual principles I used. It was still me using them. It just kept me in the boundary of so , so once that boundary was, you could almost say, I guess the best way to say it is dissipated because you start to see that it's really, it's a false boundary it's based on this mind bound perception.

Speaker 4 7:48

So where, where do you think that these boundaries are set? I mean, you talk about the rational versus the irrational and so many things. As we, as we reach that pit of desperation, we cling to that rationality, where do you think those boundaries are set? Is it, is it nature? Is it nurture?

Speaker 1 8:06

I think it's a narrative that we it's based on trauma, old belief systems, belief systems we were given that whole gamut. I think Western society really, really is , is grounded in that there's a, there's a, on a Shanti . I was a great thing. He says, there's a, there's a , uh, there's an existential crisis of unworthiness. And we know it in AA. You know, we're irritable, restless, discontent. We , we, you know, we, we, we can never be good enough and if we're good enough, you know, it's it cycles back and forth. So I think this , this, I mean, my view on it is, you know, this is a lot of Western to comes from a lot of Western perspective, you know, in the East, they don't have that. They have , uh , their perspective as an innocent. Now listen to the difference. Innocent forgetfulness say , I remember before I was drinking and using, I had a sense that something was missing and everybody always told me there wasn't anything missing, but what I've come to find out was I was dead on the money. I was dead on the money, way back before I ever learned this, there was an element of myself that I think grows in Alanon they call it evolution and maturation towards wholeness. It's not that it's wrong. It's just the process of evolution and maturation towards wholeness. And I think that's where we're all going. We're all heading in that direction, regardless of, you know, the places we stop on the way,

Speaker 3 9:49

It sounds like you're saying that it's the brokenness and it's the feeling of being an alien and an outsider that actually busts through the boundary of the limitations that we've got and enables us to see that there's something more.

Speaker 1 10:05

Yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't use that language of brokenness and that's that I would use. I like Rumi the way Rumi says it. He says the moaning of the old dog for his master is the secret cup. The moaning of the old dog for his mastery is the secret cup. In, in, in , uh , in the, some of the other traditions, they would say , uh , this, this sense of lack was placed in me to draw me closer to the creator ,

Speaker 3 10:36

The innocent forgetfulness. Yeah.

Speaker 1 10:38

It was placed in me. So I could come to remember, so I could die before I died. So I could realize there is no death, God brings us to recovery so that we can find God exactly. I mean, we , I didn't pick this, obviously just wasn't it wasn't part of the path. My path was I went to the penitentiary when I was 22 years old and I, you know, I D I last place I wanted to hang out with sober was in a monastery with a group of guys that were, you know, in AA. I mean, I thought this was surreal. So, I mean, when, when we're reading guidance, so the guidance, you know, this is, this is what I was looking at when I thought, you know, it's, it's so important to when it says, come to believe. Well, I can read that as a skillful means of accomplishing something, or I can read it as an , a doer , a description of an experience that happens to me, very different perspective. But I think both are inclusive. I had to start with the skillful means that was part of the path. It's like , uh , one of the books, it's a it's here. Let me just re if I can read, it says when surrender is a tactic, it's just another means of control. Another effort to impose your will on your disease. Surrender is beyond your power. If it weren't, you would have no need for a higher power, the genius of 12 step spirituality, isn't that it teaches you to surrender, but that it exhaust you in the effort to surrender. So you last surrender, surrendering and find yourself surrendered. I mean, that you can say, that's how it works. I mean, for most of us that have been here a little while we start to see that roar calls, that the pattern of reality, my sponsor's native American, he calls it their principle , laws and values that are in motion. And you're a part of that.

Speaker 4 13:06

Uh , so I'm, I'm a little confused. I feel like, you know, I'll speak for myself. I got to a point where there was no other path and surrender was the only path forward. And what you're suggesting is that there was some, some skill in my selecting that is that what I'm to believe?

Speaker 1 13:27

Well, for some people, that's one way to look at it. I mean, you could look at it like, and it's a perspective. I mean, it's not a right or wrong perspective. It's just, some people would say I did it. And then some people come to the realization. It happened to me, not by me.

Speaker 4 13:45

Hmm . But you're also saying that that for some people doing it is necessary to get to the place where it happens to them .

Speaker 1 13:53

Yeah. It's the paradox, you know, there's nothing you can do about your problem, but only you can do it,

Speaker 4 14:00

But there's more,

Speaker 1 14:01

Yeah. You know, my first sponsor said it like this. He said, look, you can sit in the corner and pray for him on eggs, all you want. And he said, if you just sit there, he probably started yet. But he said, if you sit in a corner, pray for him and eggs and you turn around and get up, put one foot in front of the other, you probably eat Hammond. And that just made it clear. That just was like, Oh, okay. I mean, it's not like, well, I'm powerless. Why , why should I do anything? You know? I mean, it's not that. And that's where we get into. That's why I think everybody, whatever works for people because everybody's on a different place with it , but there , but there is a reactive nature. And then there's also later becomes you're not reactive, you're responsive. It's a very diff has a whole different energy mind. And I think a lot of that comes from, you know, our practice of pausing when agitated or doubtful , um, you know, directing our attention to others, prayer. I mean, you know, it all changes. It's changes from, we're asking in prayer what we think God needs to give us. And then it changes to , well, wait, it's providing what I need if I keep close to it. And I don't know what I need, but it's providing, so the prayer changes to thank you. It doesn't, I'm not dictating anymore. I'm receiving, I'm receiving and then reciprocate that, that goes out into the world. So I think there's, there's a different degree . I wouldn't say levels. I would say degrees of it. So when they say guidance, I mean, my first guidance was I listened to my sponsor. I trusted his perspective. How did you meet your sponsor? Uh , the first one I heard speak in a meeting. Uh, the sponsor I have now, I met him at a monastery. He did a retreat up in Santa Barbara and , uh , he was a native American guy. Who'd worked for NASA and started a nonprofit . And, you know, there was just something about him that was, you know, it's that thing, you know, it's that twinkle in the eyes, it's that presence. You can't quite put your finger on it. And , uh, well I drank at 19 years and , uh, he was one of the people that never moved from the way he treated me before, during or after he just stayed constant with the whole thing. Can I ask you a little bit about that when you drank at 19 years, what happened? Well, I got sober in 1986. I got involved in AA. I got out of the penitentiary, got off parole. I started my own business. I met a girl in AA. We got married, had two kids, bought a house, started a business, you know, got everything that a pretty much promises you'll get on the outside. And all of that was the distraction to the inside. I just kind of lost touch with that and went up to a buddy's house and thought about drinking at 19 years. And it was a glass of beer on the table. And there was that little thought that went , uh , I think I'll have one of those. And it was just that subtle and that quick. And , uh , I couldn't get unhooked from that. I couldn't get released from that for about a year and a half. And it was pretty crazy. All the people I'd sponsored in a and they were all now walking behind me when I went down the stairs to make sure I didn't fall and break my neck. So it's humbling. Yeah, it was, it was very , uh, very necessary, but that was my next question. Do you feel like that was necessary? Most definitely . In fact, one of the questions , uh , my sponsor now called me. I was drinking in Newport beach and after my wife had given me divorce papers and I lit him on fire, dropped him in the kitchen, on the tile floor. And then I was going down to see an attorney in Newport beach. And I was drinking, sitting in a little Cove down there. He called me and he didn't call very often, but when he did, it was very synchronistic. He said, let me ask you a question. He said, 1996 , were you serious when you took the third step? I said, I couldn't have been more serious. Then it seemed like there was five minutes of silence. There was probably just a 30 seconds or a minute. And he said, I'm going to tell you something. You're not going to understand it. He said, all of this is part of that decision. And I didn't understand it until I was given a prayer and got released. And I saw, Oh my God, this is all I was trying to do was connect to wholeness in, in Chuck C's book, Clancy wrote a great thing. He said, the conflicts of sober reality become untenable. And that's what happened. I was juggling eight balls where before I was just juggling two , I just didn't know how to , uh, I did not know how to move in the spiritual world and the physical world. And I thought I did. It was all based on reason. And , um, so that, that surrender and that release , uh , was , uh , it was unbelievable because I mean, that's what I heard in my head. I was given a prayer to say for my wife, because I was so angry at her and the prayer was, please give her onto the very best that life has to offer. Please give her health, happiness and prosperity, and please give her a peace and understanding she's never experienced before. And , um, I said that prayer for two months and right before my kids and her went up to the ranch, that prayer happened to me, that just was, I knew what it was. I'd had that experience in 1986. So I've stayed very close to that. I mean, I've stayed because that's what it says. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of this spiritual condition, which is an internal condition. How do you maintain that spiritual condition today? Well, I say yes to things like this for one, I try I've, I , I had a plumbing business for 30 years and , um, I closed that plumbing business and went into another business that, you know , uh , I have a little business called two trees , insight guidance, and I work with other people. And so my whole life is geared towards giving back what I've been given. I do some stuff for some old clients of mine. Um , um, take care of some personal things for them that , uh , uh , it's just , uh, it's, it's our little plans and designs, you know, we kinda like, wait, you know , I thought if I could make enough money and build a business and do all these things and, you know , I mean, it seems like that was the way to go. That's what everybody told me. Well , finish the thought, if you could, if you could do that, what, well, I did it, I did it. And , uh, there was an emptiness still. And you know, now there's not that emptiness. I mean, I really believe that , uh, that's the whole, the whole point of the 12 steps is to re release you from the of self, which is amplified by drug addiction and alcoholism. I mean, thank God I'm not suffering from what's not happening anymore. I mean, that was half of my problem. My , my problems were in between my ears a little bit in my eyes that wasn't, that was the small circle of reality. So that's, that's not the case anymore.

Speaker 3 22:19

So what does it look like today, then? It sounds like you're not bound by what other people think you should be doing and what society says you should be doing. And so now what does it look like?

Speaker 1 22:31

Let's just say I get up , uh, I get up in the morning on the way to the office. It's an hour and a half. I mean a mile and a half from the house. I have a routine where I stop at the beach and I sit on the wall that used to be where I would read something. I might read Jacob Needleman, beyond belief. I might read roar and I read Shapiro. I might read something and I would sit there , come in the office. Now, pretty much I, I stopped at the beach, but I sit in the office , uh , here more than, and then I do what I do, what our book says . You know, I it's changed a lot because my instructions for it were changed. But part of that was had to do with, like it says in the 11th that we consider our plans for the day, my sponsor said, they're not talking about what you're going to do. I said, what do you mean they're not talking about? He said, no. He said, they're talking about how are you going to be? And that's based on your corrective measures of their nightly review before if I'm dismissive to you, how am I going to be today? So I don't need to so much plan the day. I mean, the day is pretty much a given thing and it never goes away. You plan it . I mean, we all know that sat down and written plans and there's always something that's going to come in and interrupt between the third thing and the fourth thing and the sixth thing in the seventh thing. So I started to see when he, when he kind of put a different twist on it, Oh, this is about moving. This is like the flow. There's a flow in it. You start following the doors that open and you can't do that from a fear based system. You won't step into those doors and those doors are only there for you. They're not there for anybody else. No one else can see them. So it takes an ability to trust and be grounded in this thing. It's like, when, when I heard about this, it was just like, well, sure. I'll do it. Why? Well, because I was asked, so you follow the pointers and it seems it's worked really well for almost 11 years. And it's a totally different lifestyle. I mean, my life's changed completely, completely. I'm good friends with my ex-wife . I've been in a four year relationship with another woman who's in Alanon and we met as very similar experiences. And I , I try to do this best I can with whatever's given to me, I think, you know, one of the things I have on my doors, it's just two trees, insight guidance. It says committed to the wisdom traditions of many dialects of one language. We're all we call it the language of the heart and the program, you know, but there's a , there's a , I remember the first meeting I went to in 1979, I remember there was a guy talking and I said, wow , I walked out , let me, I said, wow, that was a great meeting . Somebody said, what'd he say? I said, I don't have a clue, but it was a great meeting. It was like, it just bypass my head. It went somewhere and I didn't know what that somewhere was. So I've been investigating that for some time .

Speaker 4 25:57

It's a beautiful thing when you can be so open and trusting that, that you're willing to go in those doors. And I don't think a lot of people in early sobriety at least get to that place , um, without some work, you know, what goes into that work? And tell me about how you got to where you're at today and how you develop that level of trust to , to just follow God's. Will

Speaker 1 26:22

I got, I came in, in 1979. I didn't get sober until 1986. So I drank six years in AA. And part of that was, you know , of course, I didn't know what I was up against, meaning alcoholism. And when people would tell me, just don't drink it , I'd go out in the car and drank . I think there was something wrong with me. I would it through guilt and shame. And then when somebody came up to me and said , uh , you don't know , that's , you're an alcoholic. That's why you go out in the car and drank it . I was like, what? Like the information started to click. So what I did was I just followed the pointers, you know? And one of the things that was really crucial in the beginning was I started paying attention to coincidence. There was so many different, weird coincidences that were happening and I thought, wow, that's weird. I remember being in a meeting and not having a Tuesday night meeting. And I remember thinking to myself, God, I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow night. I don't have a meeting for Tuesday. And right next to me, we're two guys talking and I overheard the guy go, you know, there's a really great Tuesday night meeting at this church over on nut . And I was like, well, that's weird. And I ended up going to that meeting and it ended up being a home group for me while I was in Houston. So I was like, starting to pay attention to these little God shots. We call them . And I started to trust those little things. And at first I thought it was nuts. I thought, Oh my God, you're just losing it completely. But the deep surrender experience opens you up to a whole different dimension. So I think that's a , you know, that's a really, I mean , that's what bill says. I think one of the things he says, every one of them has gained access to and believes in, Oh, the belief comes after the access. See, I was trying to believe in something I didn't believe in . I was trying to believe in something I was supposed to believe. And there wasn't any power in that . So it's the basics. We all do the same thing. You go to meetings , you get a sponsor, you worked the steps. Best of your ability. You'll work them again. Believe me, you will work them again. And you try to, you know, prayer meditation. I mean, it says one of the things that's really profound, as I say, look, this is how we improve our conscious contact and they give you two modes, prayer, meditation. There are so many ways to improve your conscious contact with God, walk in the redwoods, stand on the edge of the grand Canyon, go to Aspen it in the middle of a December and look up at the sky at the, at the galaxy. I mean the Milky way, there are a hundred ways, you know, Rumi again, there are a hundred ways to kiss the ground and we just like, Oh, there's only two. No, there isn't, there's two ways to do this for a specific result, but there are a lot of ways to walk on the beach, look at a beautiful painting, fall in love. I mean, it's , you know, this things in , it's not so small, we start to see it . It's much more expansive than we, we believed it .

Speaker 3 29:45

You've made mention of several of my teachers. And I'm curious, what led you in the direction of the study? What made you like what came first, the study or the awareness or both, or are they intertwined?

Speaker 1 30:04

Well, what came first? Was that surrendered experience? I think, I mean, I, I was, you know, I was a high school dropout. I didn't read my first book till I was 25 years old. And um, yeah, I mean, that was basically, I, I read my first book in prison , uh , and it was a book by Leo Buscaglia living loving and learning. And it was the first time I, I was able to read something, maybe it's because I was in a cell most of the day. But , uh, my problem was I could read and I couldn't remember what I'd read. I'd read a paragraph. I get to the next paragraph. And then I'd forget what I just read. You know, some people call it ADHD. Some people call it. When I had that surrender experience, I was like, Oh, this must be what they mean by God. Obviously this is what they're talking about. And I did, what bill did I read? I started reading varieties of religious experience. And I thought, my God, this is difficult. So I would just open it randomly to pages and I'd read, maybe somebody is experienced and I go, Oh my God, that's what happened to me. So it gave proof and validity to this cause I went to people at hand and I said, Hey, this is happening . I says , yeah, you and I just keep coming back. You know, there was not many people who could give credence to that. So, but you know, as we know, certain people are putting your past start pointing you in the right direction. So I just follow that, you know , what do you tell them

Speaker 3 31:41

Know clearly got this thing and ,

Speaker 1 31:43

Uh , and they're struggling with it. Well, I think the biggest problem for new people is, is they're not finished trying to manage and control and run the gamut on what they , you know, I think that's all of our dilemmas. You know, I don't think it's any different. I think the degree of it's different, but the newer person is like, I came in here thinking you guys were going to tell me how to control my drinking. That's what I heard now. I didn't know that this thing could be removed and there wouldn't be a need to control it. That was outside of the spectrum of my perception. I couldn't even think that up until I had a direct experience with it. I couldn't go there. So I would tell people, you know , um, well, I mean, I work with some people at a treatment center, Culver city, and I do groups with them a couple of times a week. And it's , they're all right. And most of it is, they are so mind bound. They have so much rocket firing in the head. It's hard for them to sit in a group because they're listening to this commentary. That's totally, totally unnecessary for life . I mean, it's just, it's random. And until that slows down. So I think that's, what's important for new people is like, you know, take a breath when you're agitated or doubtful, just take a breath. And then it takes the focus off the thought puts it on your breath. It allows a disruption of an energy. And it also allows a space for something to come in. So I would just say, look, little steps. You're not going to take big steps. We're going to take little bitty steps. You go to meetings, you stay connected. It's real difficult for people now, especially the last year, the new people are having a tremendous time. And so are a lot of the old people. There's a lot of people with time that have emotional sobrieties , um, hasn't, hasn't really been accessed. It's another phase in the development of, you know, it's stage specific. It's like we have to get to a point where , um, we don't function from that, you know , and everything coming at us is functioning from that. So you kind of , your it's just kinda , I hate to keep quoting, but it's like your thought lives put on an airplane. It's like, you start to see a bigger picture. It's like, you're looking at high Def color now rather than black and white. So, you know, use metaphors like that to help help the newer people. But the basics are the basics. Get a sponsor, go to meetings, connect to a fellowship of people who are in the same boat you're in, because that's all part of it. Getting connected, making new friends. It's really big, really big.

Speaker 5 34:44

You forget, you ever get wrapped around the

Speaker 1 34:45

Axle today. Not too often. Not too often. Yeah. Yeah. My girlfriend goes, I can't believe you were so angry before. She just cannot get that. I said, Oh my God, you have no idea. I was , I was a maniac because I was angry. I was angry at everything and I could never put my finger on why I was angry and I can do it today. It's very clear to me. I mean, but, but the, the problem's clear from the solution. It's not, the problem is not clear from the problem. And the reason I was angry is because I was separated. I did not know that I was separated from this thing. That was right in front of me, closer to me than my breath. And when I gained access to that, and I don't mean by effort or by skillful means when say best way to say it is when I was allowed access to that, it became, self-evident why I was angry. It was self-evident. So I just , I really stay . I really that's. My, my big mantra is daily reprieve for everybody daily reprieve contingent, Hey, I don't have to worry about next week. What I gotta worry about is I , I got a meeting at seven o'clock tonight. Um, and , um, we're doing this right now and I'm not , uh , this is it. This is here, you know, it'll unfold tomorrow. And new things will come in that I didn't know were coming in. It's funny, right before this meeting a guy called me and said, will you talk in London on the daily reflections? And I said, Oh, too funny. I said, I'm fixing to do something on that. I just got a kick out. I mean, I just sit in my lap and in here by myself, you know? So, you know ,

Speaker 3 36:38

It's like, you have an attitude of adventure , um , just waiting to see what what's coming, what I'm hearing anyway is without an attachment to the outcomes of anything really just let's just see how it unfolds.

Speaker 1 36:53

Yeah. Well, I used to wake up, Oh my God, what's going to happen today . And now it's I say the same thing, but it's a whole different, it's a whole different viewpoint. And I mean, I have 11 years of knowing this thing's taken me to places I could have never got to . So I'm going to trust that no reason not to,

Speaker 3 37:20

Which is where the faith comes in just by experiencing it always, I guess, being okay.

Speaker 1 37:27

Well, that's why I think it's. So when I say, you know, it's a modality of perception that gives reality to this great mystery. It's like, you get to see behind the curtain. I mean, isn't that what wizard of Oz was about right. And fear, right? A little animal went behind , pulled the curtain back. And what they thought was this big monster was nothing but a little old man pulling levers. I mean, that's metaphorically, just dead on the money. That's what I, false evidence appears real. And I had faith in it.

Speaker 3 38:02

Well, Kurt, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I want to thank you for spending time with us . Is there anything else you'd like to tell the audience?

Speaker 1 38:10

No, I just , uh, I really enjoyed talking with you guys. I, this was , uh, this is , um , very enriching. I mean, I think this is the benefit of what we do, what you're doing with the podcast. I think it's, you know , reaching people that way. So thank you for letting me be a part of it.

Speaker 3 38:27

Thank you for being a part of it , such a blessing. And it's just such a blessing to get, to hear everyone's stories on here and get to sit with you in the space. You know, how cool is that front seat at the best concert in the world? Anybody don't tell him it's hard work. That's a service Kurt . God bless. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 38:51

Thanks so much to Kurt for joining us today. Thanks to you for listening. If you want to find out more about the daily reflection podcast, you can join us online at Facebook, facebook.com/groups/daily reflection podcast. We've also got a blog where we write about recovery. That's at blog dot daily reflection, podcast.com. We're always on Twitter at daily reflector. Thanks everyone. Have a great day.